John the Baptist

He changed people’s lives (without the need of “to-die-for” cheesecake icing) so that could be why he is famous.

Seems out of character to openly boast about one’s ignorance, unless that is the point one wishes to make.

I assumed nothing. I did not say he changed the lives of everyone. And I am sure there are many others who truly qualify as “famous” whom you are equally ignorant of.

But he did change enough lives to deserve the veneration of some. And of course, we can all agree that we should respect that veneration…if we truly are that tolerant, inclusive society.

The noted first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus writes extensively about John the Baptist. He is also pivotal in the Christian, Islamic, Baha’i, Latter Day Saints and Unification church faiths. The use of the word “character” as a descriptor for this historical figure does seems a mite strange - but I guess even a Renaissance man such as yourself cannot know everything!

I saw St. John’s finger bones on display at the Nelson-Atkins Museum in Kansas City. It was encased in a four foot tall gold and glass case, a reliquary. A picture fails to deliver the ghoulish nature of seeing human bones of any kind, let alone the digit of a saint. The Da Vinci painting of his pointing up gesture made his index finger significant. That is your St Jean Baptiste fact of the day. Also, download HBO’s Treme and get to know the trombone player Baptiste, his namesake. Good show about New Orleans Katrina disaster.

Bon Jean!

Someone else can have the job of guidance, because I am not interested in providing a sermon. Help is out there for anyone who feels they need clarification on such a basic human trait or wish feel the laws of society are flawed. Poke fun, think what you want. But any attempt at a justification of “making fun” of others whose beliefs do seem to make sense to you would not seem a very tolerant or inclusive attitude to me. Some people believe they can justify anything. Of course, they deserve our tolerance, too.

Edit:
Someone else can have the job of guidance, because I am not interested in providing a sermon. Help is out there for anyone who feels they need clarification on such a basic human trait or feel the laws of society are flawed. Poke fun, think what you want. But any attempt at a justification of “making fun” of others whose beliefs do not seem to make sense to you would not seem a very tolerant or inclusive attitude to me. Some people believe they can justify anything. Of course, they deserve our tolerance, too.

Hi, Peter,

I think not making fun of is implicit in the term “having respect for.”

That does not mean one cannot disagree with what others believe.

Saying the faith of a believer is, to you, tantamount to having faith in the Man in the Moon, would not fall into the realm of respectful discussion, IMHO.

However, I am not sure what the Man in the Moon followers would have to say about that. :)

In all the comments, while people were flogging you, I did not see a description of why John the Baptist was so well known.

John the Baptist was the holy man who baptised the young Jesus Christ, and both Jesus and John were recognized as prophets by many religions.

Bruce

In Lithuania they have a Saint Jonas’ Festival instead. I like that.

/Jonas

I actually am very curious about this “respect” of beliefs as well. I recently decided that I would stop pretending to believe in super natural beings and I find it very liberating. For years I felt I had to pretend to believe in order to please my family and friends and to properly fit into society.

At the same time, I find it very difficult to get into discussions with people about why I don’t believe. The conversation usually ends with frustration on the part of both parties. I just don’t get it. If I were to tell any person of faith, that I believe in and follow a winged unicorn with purple polka dots who tells me how to be a good person, they would surely believe I was insane; yet when they tell me they believe in an all knowing, all seeing man in white flowing robes who sits somewhere above the clouds offering them salvation, I am supposed to be understanding and respectful of that belief. In all honesty doesn’t it seem entirely likely that both the polka-dotted unicorn and the magic man are both figments of over active imaginations?

Does the respect come for just politely laughing and saying, “I certainly respect your right to believe in whatever magical creatures you feel you need in your life in order to be happy”?

How about if you said, “I certainly respect your right to believe,” full stop?

PS - Bruce - I think I did do a little explaining about who John was? (first comment after interchange between Peter and Wayne).

I hope I didn’t come across as “flogging” in any of my comments. Didn’t mean to, and if so, my apologies.

Peter, it’s unclear to me from your post if you were just making the point that you don’t see the need to venerate John the Baptist, or if you were indeed not sure who he was or of the nature of his claim to fame.

If the former, fair enough. But if the latter, I’m inclined to agree that it reflects a gap in historical and cultural knowledge that isn’t something of which to be proud. Even Richard Dawkins thinks the Bible should be taught for its historical and literary significance, e.g. an educated person shoud be expected to understand allusions like “the patience of Job,” “David vs. Goliath,” etc. (The story of John the Baptist’s death is the source of the expression “to bring someone’s head on a platter.”)

Bruce has already given you the thumbnail sketch of the Baptist’s religious significance, so no need to belabor that point. One needn’t believe to recognize the near-necessity for citizens of any Western society to be familiar with the basic characters and narratives of the Bible if they aspire to understand their own history.