Multi-penis Marriage

I think you can be a “sanctity of marriage” advocate while being only incidentally gay. I think a lot of people depend on a belief in an abstract/spiritual idealness that is somehow (thanks to the white gown and ceremony) inextricably associated with the existential reality of their relationships (i.e. the day-to-day ups and downs of events and your feelings about them). That belief part of how they persevere in relationships and feel content with the lives they live. So because a lot of belief rests on “everybody else” seeming to buy into them (“a lot of smart people believe in God, so I guess I will too”), it’s a threat to your happiness and an insult to your belief if some people start questioning the purchase and asking for an exchange or refund. The New Yorker had a good article on this awhile back.

Ahem. I meant “incidentally ANTI-gay” not “incidentally gay”

Let me try that again:

“I think you can be a “sanctity of marriage” advocate while being only incidentally anti-gay. I think a lot of people depend on a belief in an abstract/spiritual idealness that is somehow (thanks to the white gown and ceremony) inextricably associated with the existential reality of their relationships (i.e. the day-to-day ups and downs of events and their feelings about them). That belief is part of how they persevere in relationships and feel content with the lives they live. So because a belief often rests to a large extent on “everybody else” seeming to buy into it (“a lot of smart people believe in God, so I guess I will too”), it’s going to feel like a threat to your happiness and an insult to your belief if people hesitate to buy and ask for an exchange or refund. The New Yorker had a good article on this awhile back.”

They never explain the “threat”. What is this threat?

In practice nearly 40% of children in Canada live with only one parent. This is increasingly the typical household. Many men and women live together having decided not to have children. Is having children the only reason for a union? What about those that adopt?

Where in the gospels does Jesus define marriage? So what is the Christian tradition as defined by Christ. The tradition they call upon is the tradition of the Jews but then were not many of the heroes of the old testament polygamous?

Finally why do we insist that the traditions of marriage begin in Europe in the last 2,000 years. Unions of all sorts predate and coexist with the so called Christian tradition (Old testament really)

When called to recant, Luther told the church officials that he would recant gladly if they could point to one line of the words of Jesus that supported the sale of indulgences. So in that tradition - where is the foundation of the so called traditional marriage that the inclusion of gays will so undermine?

As you may know, an Indulgence was kinda like a “get outta jail” card you could buy for a deceased relative or friend which was sold by the Church. It decreased the time spent in Pergatory by the dearly departed. Then, enterprising retailers decided they could be purchased for the buyer. Then, purchased for future sins the buyer might commit. Before the fact, so-to-speak. One smart crook purchased an Indulgence from a retailer for a future sin he would commit, then promptly robbed the retailer, yelling as he ran out the door…”This is my next sin, and the one I just purchased forgiveness from!”

The funding was to be used to build churches in Rome, which poor folks in the rest of Europe did not support, and this all helped to drive the Reformation.

Robert, I served over Martin Luther. I knew Martin Luther. Martin Luther was a friend of mine. Robert, you’re no Martin Luther.

I think things aren’t as dire as you think. Most polls show that younger people fully support gay marriage. Certainly some older people do as well, but the support among young people is widespread.

I think it’s likely that most listeners of and callers to cross-country checkup skew older, and thus would be more likley to oppose gay marriage.

What I’m saying is wait twenty years and this won’t even be an issue. Think of civil rights for visible minorities or access for the disabled today as compared to 50 years ago.

I’m not saying we don’t have alot of work to do as a society. But I think people know what’s right in their hearts. Sometimes it just takes them awhile to get there.

When we depend on young people to be the driving force of social change, I wonder what we’ve come to. We don’t know who we are ourselves let alone what we should be doing or acting upon. Young people (this includes myself) often are more social in nature and we don’t understand the vast implications of our choices. When we reach that university age we are often experiencing for the first time the desire to help others in society for the first time; beginning to look outside ourselves, often in a naive manner. First time into the fray, I’d rather follow a battle hardened vetern than a youthful general with little experience; but that’s just me. We dismiss the older generation as lecturing and small minded; but yet the next generation creeps ever deeper into crime and addictions. I’m continually amazed by the high quality of advice and wisdom from older people, probably because I expect them to be small-minded and in-side-the-box. It’s not as if homosexuality is a new trend. This has been occuring for thousands of years and is recorded as such in the Bible. It’s funny to me, those who accept all these ideas that same-sex marriage is great on the other certainly make effort to malign the ‘small-mindedness’ of those who don’t agree. Hopefully this doesn’t sound too offensive to you, as I’ve taken the liberty you’ve granted your readers of posting comments on your entries. Take Care.

Its not a question of agreeing or disagreeing on the matter. Its a question of the logical, reasoned extension of rights and a question of individual autonomy, the individual being the fundamental unit of society. And, finally, the inability of those who don’t agree to put forward a reasoned argument against same-sex marriage rights.

Being gay me be the oldest form of birth control. Maybe gay people realize there are too many humans, yet they still want to have sex. They are like the floating off switch in the toilet tank. War is the flush handle, and we all know where peace goes.

I’m sure you appreciate tbe difficulty for many religious people of providing a ‘logical’ reason for restricting marriage to heterosexual couples opposed to same sex marriage. There are different belief systems in place so it’s not an arguement built solely on an individual manner. So if a person doesn’t have the same belief set then it’s very difficult to see the reasoning behind another individuals belief, even though it may or may not be valid.

That’s right. Your beliefs and my beliefs and the person down the hall may all be different. Therefore, we have to provide the same rights and allow the same freedoms for everyone. And we can’t allow anyone to impose their beliefs on anyone else. If I want to have a religion that doesn’t allow same-sex marriage, then I can start one. If I want to have a religion that doesn’t allow opposite-sex marriage, then I should be able do that too. Neither has any effects on the beliefs of the other.

I guess one thing that still distresses me is the coming vote in the Canadian Parliament on the whole issue. Surely I’m not the only one who sees a real problem when the rights of a minority are voted upon and “granted” by a majority.

If there were a question as to whether or not aboriginal people or black people or (insert your minority here) people deserve the same rights as anyone else, would it actually come up before the Houses of Parliament?

There are groupings of people that are considered legitamate groupings and others that are not and how we conceive the groups evolves. How about the group of people called “murderers”? Should parliament be able to vote on their rights? Seemingly a lot of anti-gay people see homosexuality as a choice and/or curable, and I think it may be because of that that it seems fair to legislate against them, like we legislate against murderers, to the extent they were mentally fit and had a choice at the time they killed the person.

Re the vote in parliament: I don’t know the rules exactly but its possible that they may be voting to change the definition of marriage under whatever legislation exists as per instructions from the supreme court decision which is not exactly the same thing as having a vote on the rights of homosexuals its just amending the definition of a previously defined term. I think.

1) Legitimacy and formal recognition in law.
2) Benefits and rights such as naturalization of immigrant spouse, tax claiming dependants, pension/employment benefits, maternity/paternity leave.
3) Lower car insurance rates.
4) Anniversaries!

I think “R” is right. The source of equal rights for homosexuals in marriage and other areas is the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If Parliament refuses to change the current definition of marriage (or passes other legislation that contravenes perceived rights) then a Charter appeal case could likely be launched in the Supreme Court. Given the recent Supreme Court statement on the matter, it seems clear what the result of that would be.

On Peter’s original question of how we deal with varying attitudes in society, I’m reminded of a lecture I attended many years ago given by Alan Borovoy of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. A bunch of us ended up with Mr. Borovoy at a Pizza Delight after the talk to continue the discussion. At the time I boldy, and naively, voiced the opinion that the only way injustice would be stamped out in society was if we changed the minds and hearts of the wrong-headed. I think Alan was bemused by my youthful idealism but he proceeded to say, if memory serves, that he didn’t really care whether or not people liked particular groups in society (homosexuals amongst them, presumably) as long as they weren’t allowed to discriminate against them.

Reflecting on it over the years, what I took from that night was that while the fight for the hearts and minds of people shouldn’t be ignored, we can’t as a society always wait for everyone to catch up. While it’s far from ideal, the fact that you don’t like someone for some reason isn’t as important in the short term as the fact that you’re not allowed to fire them because of it.

Mils:

Yeah, actually aboriginal rights come up all the time in Parliament, every time a treaty is passed. Luckily there is Constitutional protection for these rights, which doesn’t seem to stop government from ignoring them from time to time and getting burned by the Court.

As for the gay marriage issue, things I can’t fathom about the “anti-” position include:

* the much debunked “marriage is for pro-creation” myth, which has been mostly dropped out of compassion for those who can’t have children.

* the “traditional” marriage argument. At what point do we draw the line? Do we go back to where marriage meant that the woman became the property of the man? No? Then how much change is too much?

* The threat to the institution arguement. I can’t see how gay marriage threatens straight couples. If you think about it, it’s better - fewer single gay people out there tempting married people into sin.

Anyway…I don’t agree with you Peter that anti-gay sentiment is that strong. i think if you scratch the surface, you’ll find anti-gay sentiment, but I think that under the veneer of anti-gay sentiment, most people in Canada actually don’t care all that much.

I bet there is no “threat to the institution” argument or at least no single one. There’s the “threat to the institution” sound byte and the slogan you paint on placards or shout across the street or preach to the choir. But I suspect people rarely get challenged to rationalize why they perceive the threat. Like I was suggesting implicitly above, I think the real threat goes on unconsciously.

The “threat to the institution” is actually a threat to the institution of organized religion.
Organized religion is based on group brainwashing, which is only successfully perpetrated by fear.
Once the brainwashed are allowed to notice that people on the outside appear to be “committing mortal sins” in a large group, and NOT being struck by thunderbolts, they start to question the validity of their own brainwashing.
This is called “de-programming”.
The religious institutions are terrified of this.
Plus, they hate playing mental images of boys doing it to other boys. (Meanwhile, the men of those religions do tend to fantasize about girls doing it with other girls on an almost daily basis.)

Mental images of doing it. The internet is degenderizing sex, forging new law, and undermining old institutions based on gender.

Why are public restrooms separate anyway? Isn’t it the same reason as the burka - a barrier protecting chastity?

Restrooms are separate to preserve man’s God-given right not to have to wait in line for a stall.

Belgian tavern cans are not separate. I once almost arranged a rather nice date with a lass from London near the urinal. And that is why they should not be uni-sex.

Ally McBeal - Alan’s Doppelganger. Female, White, and American. Yet likes Beer, The Law, and Dancing Babies.

Right some skinny like me, too.