Adventures with HP

If you go to this page here, which is the support page for the HP PSC 2355 printer/scanner, you will see a helpful link identified as “Chat with an online technician.” As I can’t get my PSC 2355 scanning features to work after an upgrade to OS X “Tiger,” and can’t find any information about why this isn’t working on the HP website, I clicked on the link.

There’s a note on the subsequent page that reads “The HP Chat application does not support Mac Operating System. Mac customers can still access a support technician via e-mail or phone.” I didn’t see that, so I entered the requested information and clicked “Connect” and, for some magical reason, the system worked on my Mac. Here’s how it went.

Ricky: Hello Peter.
Ricky: Welcome to HP Total Care for All-in-One products. My name is Ricky.
Peter Rukavina: Hello
Peter Rukavina: I’m having problems with my HP2355 All in One.
Peter Rukavina: It’s connected to my iMac via USB.
Peter Rukavina: I’ve just upgraded to OS X “Tiger”
Peter Rukavina: I can print, but I cannot scan.
Ricky: Peter, I understand that you have PSC 2355 and installed on MAC OS. Am I right?
Peter Rukavina: Yes.
Ricky: Peter, let me explain you.
Ricky: At the present time HP does not offer Chat Support for this product in the Macintosh operating environment. HP does offer full support for your product in the Macintosh environment through our telephone support teams. They can be reached by calling us at 1-800-474-6836 or 1-800-HPINVENT. We apologize for the inconvenience and look forward to serving you.
Peter Rukavina: But your website says “click here to chat online” right on the Mac support page…
Ricky: I would like to help you to resolve the issue. As the support is restricted for Windows versions, we need to have sufficient documents to support you on MAC OS. So, I recommend you to contact the phone support team and they will help you in resolving the issue.

At this point, leaving the chat window open, I called the 1-800 number that Ricky gave me. After following through a series of voice prompts that led me to identify my product and operating system, I was told that the support centre was closed on Sundays. I returned to Ricky:

Peter Rukavina: I called your 1-800 number, but the recording there says you aren’t open on Sundays.
Ricky: Peter, let me confirm, is this the number you have called now:1800-474-6836.
Peter Rukavina: Yes. I called, followed the prompts to identify the PSC 2355 for Mac, and received a recorded message saying you are only open on Mon-Fri and on Saturdays.
Ricky: Peter, I think the MAC support team is opened from Monday to saturday.
Ricky: The support center for Windows is opened for 24 / 7.
Peter Rukavina: Is there any way I can get Mac PSC 2355 support on a Sunday at all?
Ricky: Let me check.
Ricky: Peter, thank you for your time.
Ricky: You can email the issue to the email support team and they will reply you with in 1 hour with the solution.
Peter Rukavina: Thank you for your help. Have a good day!
Ricky: Open the above link. Click on link which is under Email and post the issue to them and they will help you to resolve the issue.

I’ll let you know what happens next.


Peter Rukavina's picture
Peter Rukavina on May 17, 2005 - 01:15 Permalink

Roughly 23 hours *after* I was promised a reply to my email (“You can email the issue to the email support team and they will reply you with in 1 hour with the solution.”), I received instructions from HP on how to proceed. These included instructions on how to completely uninstall the HP printer driver from the system followed by a requirement to download a 107MB file from the website (which seems insane, but I’m doing it anyway; what if I was on a dial-up connection!?). We’ll see how this goes.

oliver's picture
oliver on May 17, 2005 - 01:30 Permalink

If you come away from your HP support experience with anything besides a desire to kill somebody, you’ll be beating my average.

Peter Rukavina's picture
Peter Rukavina on May 17, 2005 - 01:33 Permalink

I downloaded the 107MB file, followed the installation instructions, and I am now able to scan and print as before I upgraded to Tiger.

Peter Rukavina's picture
Peter Rukavina on May 17, 2005 - 01:48 Permalink

Here are HP’s complete instructions for solving my problem:

We understand from your e-mail that the HP Setup Assistant does not detect the PSC 2355 when scanning.

HP is aware of this particular issue where the Setup Assistant in Tiger does not detect the PSC 2355 when scanning. We have had success resolving this issue by installing the web driver for the PSC 2355.

Complete the following steps to uninstall the HP software:

1. Double-click the hard drive (by default labeled Macintosh HD).
2. Double-click the Applications folder.
3. Double-click the Hewlett-Packard folder.
4. Double-click the HP Uninstaller.
5. Enter the Administrator password.
6. Select the devices to uninstall and continue.
7. Remove the checkmarks to retain all of the applications or add-ins that are listed.
8. Uninstall the HP Software.
9. Double-click the hard drive (by default labeled Macintosh HD).
10. Double-click the Applications folder.
11. Double-click the Utilities folder.
12. Double-click the Printer Setup Utility.
13. Select and Delete any reference to the PSC 2355 from the Printer List.

We will now delete the preferences for the printer. To do this:

1. Double-click the hard drive (by default labeled Macintosh HD).
2. Double-click Users.
3. Double-click your username (it will have a house beside it).
4. Double-click Library.
5. Double-click Preferences.
6. Trash all files and folders that start with com.hp, hp, Hewlett-Packard and

We will also delete the aio printers folder:

1. Double-click the hard drive (by default labeled Macintosh HD).
2. Double-click Library.
3. Double-click Printers.
4. Double-click HP.
5. Drag the aio folder to the trash.
6. Restart the Macintosh.

We have provided a URL that will open a page to download the most recent HP Software:…

NOTE: It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL into the web address bar of your Internet browser.

1. Scroll down to the bottom of the window, and click the Download Now button to download the HP Software. If you are using Safari, check the note regarding Safari on the download page.
2. When the HP Software has finished downloading, open the HP Installer.
3. Enter the Administrator password.
4. If consent is given, accept the license agreement.
5. Install the HP Software.
6. When the HP Installer has finished copying the files, the HP All-in-One Setup Assistant will start. Please select the default paper size, and continue the HP Setup Assistant.
7. Search for the device, and continue the HP Setup Assistant. If the device is not found:
a. Check that the USB connection is directly from the Macintosh to the PSC 2355 with no USB hubs or USB extension cables.
b. Check that the PSC 2355 is turned on.
c. Click the Rescan button.
8. Follow the on screen instructions to add the PSC 2355 to the Printer Setup Utility if needed.

We recommend printing a test page from TextEdit to verify printing. To do this:

1. Open the Macintosh Hard Drive.
2. Open the Applications folder.
3. Open TextEdit. A new window labeled ‘untitled’ should appear.
4. Type in text such as ‘HP TEST PAGE’.
5. Select Page Setup from the File menu to make sure the PSC 2300 Series, the Paper Type and Paper Size are selected.
6. Select Print from the File menu.
7. Click the Print button to process and print the TextEdit document.

If the issue is still not satisfactorily resolved, please respond to this e-mail and include the results of the above troubleshooting so that Hewlett-Packard can better understand the present situation.

Sandra's picture
Sandra on June 3, 2005 - 14:54 Permalink

Since upgrading to TIGER, couldn’t get the HP printer to be receognized onto my G4 laptop even when we have the usb attached directly from printer. However, another laptop in our network was still able to print via the Airport Extreme even after upgrading to TIGER…

Couldn’t figure it out. If I would print from my laptop, the printer would shoot out page after page with single one line data… would have have to hit the cancel button to stop it. In order to reinstall the software fron HP, you need to have the printer recognized by the All IN ON HP assistance setup program.

AND since it could not find the USB printer it will go no further. Have gone to the System Pref / Printer & Fax tab, have set up the printer there. It does see the usb printer then. However, still unable to install the settings for the Driver after that. The ALL-in-one Assistance says no printer connect to this computer.

But after find your info about how to do a thorough uninstall instead of just using the uninstall on the “HP folder”, were are now printing, scanning with no problems and using our Airport Extreme with 5 Macs printing without a glicht!

Thank you for putting such a detailed report on the HOW TO UNINSTALL.. That was sooo very much appreciated.

Rue Burlingham's picture
Rue Burlingham on June 8, 2005 - 21:36 Permalink

I was relieved to find that my problem getting the HP Setup Asst to detect the PSC2355 was not unique. I tried to carefully follow your instructions to uninstall and then download the new driver which went well, but at that point I was stuck. I had a file on the desktop called “2350_700_EN.smi.hqx”. Your instructions were to “open the HP Installer”. What is the HP installer? Do you mean the one on the CD that came with the printer? I tried to open the 2350 file and it said I had to choose an application for it to open into. Which application? There was a bit left out of your instruction. Thanks anyway for trying. The printing function works well on the printer, but it just won’t scan, and I need that function. Can you recommend a printer/scanner that is compatible with OS X Tiger in the same price range? Thank you.

Rue Burlingham's picture
Rue Burlingham on June 13, 2005 - 18:41 Permalink

Hello! Here’s an update to my last post—I called an hp support guy and he was very helpful—turns out that my new iMac with OS X Tiger didn’t have a Stuffit Expander. After downloading Stuffit from the Internet, the 2350 file opened and completed the installation of the updated driver. Now my scanner works fine except for one thing—when I restart my computer, it asks me to choose an application to open the document “hp trap monitor”—I don’t know what application to choose and what the trap monitor is. Any ideas?

Eric's picture
Eric on June 30, 2005 - 13:39 Permalink

I would like to know about the HP Trap Monitor. The folder it’s contained in opens at startup. Not like it’s the worst thing that could happen, but it’s annoying.

Peter Rukavina's picture
Peter Rukavina on June 30, 2005 - 13:41 Permalink

I’d like to know about this too, Eric: I’ve noticed that that folder is open on every startup.

Ulf Persson's picture
Ulf Persson on July 3, 2005 - 09:11 Permalink

I have had the same issue with psc2355 and am now stuck with the HP Trap Monitor file showing each time I start up. I have had another problem recently which I am wondering if it is related to the HP problem. My Safari is very slow despite good network connections. Particularly when using wireless at home (D-link 614+). Somewhere on the Apple support site I saw a reference to HP all-in-one saying it MAY be a reason for the slowdown. I don’t understand why this might be the case but I thought I’d ask this forum.

Someone Helpful's picture
Someone Helpful on July 5, 2005 - 22:16 Permalink

Hi people, the PSC 2355 has had a known issue since the beginning with Tiger. The installation CD’s version of the software just won’t detect it in the second page of the setup assistant. Use the web based drivers to resolve that issue.

ATOP of that, Tiger has big issues with the All-in-One series in general, but they are quite resolvable. The situation is that the built-in drivers supplied with Tiger for this line of printers are shall we say… troublesome. So, we remove those drivers by doing this:

- Trash the Mac HD/Library/Printers/HP folder.
- Restart the Mac.
- Empty trash.
- Run the disk permissions repair using Mac HD/Applications/Utilities/Disk Utility.
- Install from a web-based driver package for the printer if available, otherwise in most cases the CD’s drivers will quite nicely with Tiger.

Additionally Trap monitor has been coming up, to resolve this one move the file Mac HD/Library/StartupItems to your desktop, open the information for it with ‘Apple key’-I. Rename the folder to have .app at the end, so it will then be called HP Trap Drag that file package back into the startup items and when it asks to authenticate or Ok, be sure to _authenticate_. Repairing your disk permissions once in a while tends to keep situations like these from happening.

-Someone that fixes these ;)

Btw Peter, I dunno who’d say you get a response within an hour, the standard response time is 24 to 48 hours. Mac department isn’t even open on Sunday, not that I mind.

ex2bot's picture
ex2bot on July 6, 2005 - 05:41 Permalink

Rue and Eric, you mentioned that the folder containing HP Trap Monitor was opening at startup. Have you checked your Login Items?

Go to System Preferences>Accounts. Unlock if necessary by clicking on the padlock and entering your password. Make sure your user account is highlighted. Select the “Login Items” tab at the top right of the window. Look for anything goofy.

If this was off-base or too elementary, I humbly apologize.


Eddie's picture
Eddie on July 7, 2005 - 11:46 Permalink

Info about HP PSC 2355 has been very useful. I too couldn’t get Tiger to recognise it on my ibook but downloaded the web software and that seemed Ok. Must try to get rid of Trap monitor folder but instructions on posts seem a bit complex for non techie like me.

Another problem I have found is that in OS9 on my desktop G4 when I go to print multiple copies, from any programme the software can’t cope!
if I select 4 copies, for example, it will print 4 copies but any other job I print after that from the same programme will also print 4 copies, regardless of what I choose in the HP monitor. I have to shut down the programme and restart the programme to get it to print out the required number of copies. This applies in Photoshop, Word, Illustrator, Outlook express etc etc
Anyone any ideas (sorry if this sounds a bit complex)

Cary's picture
Cary on July 30, 2005 - 17:59 Permalink

For those of you who are still having problems getting rid of that pesky “HP Trap Monitor” folder window at starup even after installing the newest version of driver software, I’ve called HP tech support (1.800.474.6836), and they’ve helped me solve this issue in 10 minutes.

1) Open up your “Macintosh HD” and find Library > StartupItems > HP Trap Monitor
2) Drag the “HP Trap Monitor” folder to your desktop. This should automatically make a copy of the folder on your desktop
3) Once you have the copy of the folder, drag the original “HP Trap Monitor” folder into trash, but don’t empty your trash yet
4) Hold down your Control key on keyboard and click on the “HP Trap Monitor” folder on your desktop and select “Get Info”
5) In the Info window under “Name & Extension,” change the name so that it reads “HP Trap” (Type in your computer password whenever requested by your computer)
6) Once you close the Info window, the icon of the “HP Trap Monitor” folder should change from a folder icon to an application icon. Note that the name of it should now also be changed to “HP Trap”
7) Drag the “HP Trap” back into you Macintosh HD > Library > StartupItems
8) When a pop-up window appears, click on “Authenticate” (DO NOT click on “OK”)
9) Restart your computer
10) After startup, pop-up window may appear regarding permission. Click on “Fix” and then “Restart”
11) Once your computer restarts again, you should be all set. You can now empty your trash.

In case you still have problems after walking through these steps, call the tech support at the number above. I found them very helpful.

Peter Rukavina's picture
Peter Rukavina on August 5, 2005 - 18:15 Permalink

Confusingly, there appear to be *two* recent updates released for the Mac OS X drivers for the HP 2355 “all in one.” There’s this update, titled “Web installers for Mac OS X 10.2 and later (English)” that claims to be version 7.3.1 of the drivers, released July 26, 2005. This version, upon installation, left me without the ability to scan. Then there’s this update, titled “Web installers for Mac OS X 10.2 and later” that also claims to be version 7.3.1. This version installs correctly, and after installation I can use both printer and scanner. Looking at the URLs, I’m wondering if the difference is a Canadian driver vs. a US driver (there’s a ‘cc=ca’ in the first URL and a ‘cc=us’ in the second one it’s the US one that worked for me).

sonia's picture
sonia on October 14, 2005 - 21:22 Permalink

Hoy pude scanear mi primer imagen.
HP people couldn’t give me a correct answer about my problem, but Peter: you did.
Thanks v.much.

Piotr Szewczyk's picture
Piotr Szewczyk on November 6, 2005 - 13:50 Permalink

Hi All,

I tried all of the above suggestions however I still get a “no device found” message during installation ( I downloaded the latest driver suggested in the last post). Anyone else had trouble also with the new drivers?

Piotr Szewczyk's picture
Piotr Szewczyk on November 9, 2005 - 19:22 Permalink

Hi All,

Just came back to tell you that the driver DOES work. I am not sure what finally did the trick but here’s what I did. After several installlations and deinstallations the printer stopped reacting to the Mac standard Print and Fax setup and I had no print, no scan, nothing. I thought the damn thing finally busted to hell and I could return it to the store and be rid of this nightmare. I hooked it up to my Windows laptop to check and after 2 tries it popped up. This might have done the trick. Then I changed the USB cable to a brand new one and connected to the Mac and … it worked.

Help me, please.'s picture
Help me, please. on November 27, 2005 - 23:15 Permalink

Can anyone let me know where to find the software HP Uninstaller ? I am trying to follow Peter’s May 16 post regarding the psc 2355. I can find some of the other things to uninstall manually, but don’t see many of the things listed on my Mac running 10.4.2.

Thanks for any help!

Achilleas's picture
Achilleas on December 9, 2005 - 21:01 Permalink

Thank you very much!
The problem with the error “No Device Found” was very annoying and now it is fixed thanks to you!

Vanessa's picture
Vanessa on December 16, 2005 - 01:34 Permalink

You may find this hard to believe. My HP PSC 2355xi was giving me the error message, “Incorrect cartridge: Tri-color print cartridge inserted is not intended for use in this printer.” The print cartridge is a 97 and has the triangle. I go and get a new cartridge and test with the printer disconnected from the computer. The test page prints fine. I then connect to my Mac mini (OS 10.4.3) and get the error message again. Now, even if I disconnect the computer, I still get the error message. Is this printer possessed?

Achilleas's picture
Achilleas on December 16, 2005 - 19:25 Permalink

In the 2355 Software Page in you can find an update concerning the Print Cartridges Rejection in 2355…Download and it should be OK

WryMuse's picture
WryMuse on January 2, 2006 - 05:09 Permalink

I actually ran into this issue with my PSC 2355. We tried everything, even a run in with an HP Tech which drove us nuts. I even did the above procedure concerning removing the software completely and reinstalling the latest update. I still had issues. Then it occured to us to keep it simple. We decided to fix our permissions on the mac. Volia! It was fixed and I haven’t had a problem since. It’s been 5 months.

George R.'s picture
George R. on January 2, 2006 - 05:29 Permalink

Having bought a new iMAC_G5 (Tiger) to run wirelessly, along with an HP 2355 printer, and using an Airport Extreme, I can print wirelessly AOK. But AppleStore OKCity says I won’t be able (yet) to do scanning wirelessly. Presumably this is totally a software problem (?). If solution known / found, plese let me (and others) know it. Sincerely GRK

George R.'s picture
George R. on January 2, 2006 - 05:39 Permalink

Having bought a new iMAC_G5 (Tiger) to run wirelessly, along with an HP 2355 printer, and using an Airport Extreme, I can print wirelessly AOK. But AppleStore OKCity says I won’t be able (yet) to do scanning wirelessly. Presumably this is totally a software problem (?). If solution known / found, please let me (and others) know it. Sincerely GRK

ACHILLEAS's picture
ACHILLEAS on January 26, 2006 - 18:41 Permalink

New Software released 2006-1-20!

Lesley's picture
Lesley on February 24, 2006 - 01:48 Permalink

I may be the last person on the planet to upgrade to Tiger — and thanks to all of you, I could immediately solve my printing problems — who would have guessed I’d own the printer (HP2355) that would have wonky drivers. But I can’t send a fax through the new Tiger — which is supposed to be an auto thing through the FAX PDF function. Instead, it crashes whatever program I am trying to send from … any advice? thanks

cec mer's picture
cec mer on April 5, 2006 - 19:25 Permalink

thanks for your page. it helps me to install the hp all in one printer 2355 correctly on my mac (os X 10.4.6). I was also not able to use the scanner. but now it seems to work correctly.'s picture on May 9, 2006 - 05:08 Permalink

My 8 yr old was prnting somethings for school and now the printer is in an error mode.Lights blinking and the following on the screen. error:0x05f37c2b and 1523:pen_idc . Whats going on???? Jim

Alice Gray's picture
Alice Gray on May 30, 2006 - 07:32 Permalink

I’ve reloaded my HP PSC 2350 at least 3 times on my Mac OSX 10.4. This time I got farther than ever — I’d say I was mostly successful this time. However, I’m still having one problem. I am able to copy from a postcard on the glass, but in the scan function, although it scans clearly, when I go to print from anything (scan, Text Edit, AppleWorks Word Processing) I get this across the top (followed by endless blank pages unless I hit cancel, and I do not have Adobe Photoshop on my Mac):
%RBINumCopies: 1
%%Pages: (atend)
%APL_DSC_Encoding: UTF8
%%Title: (H [edge of paper)
[or U

What is going on and how can I fix this? Thanks for all you do ! Alice

Peter Beddow's picture
Peter Beddow on August 25, 2006 - 22:06 Permalink

I have been having the same problem as Alice, where the HP LaserJet 2100 prints fine using a Windows machine, and I’ve installed both the Gimp drivers and by using the 10.4 drivers, including the USB-to-parallel application that was recommended elsewhere ( http://easynews.dl.sourceforge… ) and I’m getting the same erroneous output beginning with %!PS-Adobe-3.0…etc. followed by lots of blank pages (though not endless.)

Help anyone?


Tom Sutherland's picture
Tom Sutherland on September 19, 2006 - 08:41 Permalink

Thank you so much for your instructions on fixing the printer. I bought the PSC 2355 and shortly updated to an intel mac with Tiger and it stopped working. Have been looking for weeks for a solution!!

H Bult's picture
H Bult on September 23, 2006 - 22:02 Permalink

I’m running MacOSX 10.4.7 (Tiger) on a G4.
Purchased HP all in one PSC 2355.
After various new drivers all working fine except OCR.
The HP bundle contained Readiris Pro 9 which when installed could not recognise scanner.
Message “OCR support for HP Scan Pro has not been installed”.
After endless contact with HP help they decided I needed Readiris Pro 11 for Mac.
Downloaded trial version into Applications with no problem.
Same message .
HP now advise me to contact Readiris. Have tried via e-mail, no reply.
Is there any solution you know of?
H Bult

Ziggy Babel's picture
Ziggy Babel on September 20, 2007 - 22:09 Permalink

I have HP Officejet 7310x1. After power ON I recive Error:0x05f37c2b and 1523:pen_id.c
What is the problem?

Marty's picture
Marty on October 29, 2007 - 22:23 Permalink

Looks like I’m NOT alone here..ave been tring for days to get this damned thing to scan. Been going to the library for god’s sake to scan..after paying all this money for the ‘convenience’ (NOT!) of the HP All-in-One. Went online for help..they referrd me to an 800number..who in turn tried to sell me an extended waranty in order to fix what should be working from the Get-go. THIS is why I am THROUGH with HP…!!!

marty's picture
marty on October 29, 2007 - 22:25 Permalink

Looks like I’m also having keyboard problems…will have to type S-L-O-W-E-R in order not to have my comments full of typos! Sorry!

Deborah's picture
Deborah on December 19, 2007 - 02:31 Permalink


I found this out the hard way… After spending a day and a half going from web site to web, site because HP’s web site is useless, I found this one to be the closest and best option for a resolve to my issue. I was trying to find the update driver for my printer. I have a 2355 xi All-in-one printer and am running OSX 10.5.1 on my mac… Like most here, I can print but not scan. I am a graphic designer and scanning is a necessity for me. After downloading yet another 100+MB unsuccessful file, I had it, and called HP’s customer service. By the way, the last file I downloaded was Swedish, although it said English! That along with broken links on their website is what caused my breaking point. After being on the phone for a good 20 minutes, with several people, I was told that in order to continue speaking with them I needed to buy support or continue with the support offered on their website. I didn’t need support…I knew what was wrong with my printer…I needed the updated driver to run on my system! To make a long and very frustrating story short, I finally ended up with a Senior Case Manager at HP who told me there is no driver made for all the components of the printer to be compatible with OSX 10.5. I asked if there was a forecast and he said no. Another note about the frustrations on their website is that this Senior Case Manager I spoke to also said that the current driver is located under “software” and not “drivers”, where it should be… Eesh…

More importantly… why isn’t the fact that there is no driver for Mac OSX 10.5 posted on their website? Double eesh…

D.'s picture
D. on February 17, 2008 - 19:22 Permalink

I found your blog doing a search for a way to contact HP. This will take a few minutes, but at the end it will be explained. First, I will state what has been done to date.

I have a HP PSC 2355xi All-In-One scanner/printer/copier, about 2 years old. Last year it changed. Have no idea why.

I lost my HP Director, the Image Zone, virtually evreything except scan & copy using the printer controls. Tried the installation disc sent with the 2355, still no good.

Went online to HP chat with one of their techs. Took over an hour, and he walked me thru a download installation that also took about 1/2 hour (I have DSL).
Still, had no Image Zone, or HP Director. Was so frustrated that I didn’t want to deal with it again. Until last month.

ON Jan 31st, I went to an online chat with one of their Techs, he walked me thru, found that the printer driver did work, another hour at least, he gave me a URL for a download„ sent me an email telling me how to delete all HP from the computer.
Since the download did not resolve the issue, I went thru his email doing all the things he said to get HP out, and downloaded again.
Now, I have Image Zone, but still no HP Director.

I am now unable to go to a chat with HP, for some reason an error message, and the program shuts down when I attempted to online chat. In addition, I am unable to find a phone # in order to talk directly with them.

Can you offer any help?
D. Williams

Jenny's picture
Jenny on April 1, 2008 - 03:09 Permalink

We have been using an HP PSC2350 with great success. G5 and Laptop using wireless. We pressed the cancel button on the unit by mistake and now can only print by attaching directly to each computer. Any ideas?